(light music) - Welcome to Forum 360 for a Zoom edition of our Global Outlook with a Local View.

I'm Leslie Ungar, your host today.

More of our country's presidents have come from Ohio than any other state.

Eight of 46 American presidents were elected from the Buckeye State, earning Ohio the nickname "The Mother of Presidents," and proving how important Ohio has been in the history of our country.

Between 1990 and 2020, Ohio really was a swing state; swinging between red and blue in each national election.

It was true that so goes Ohio, so goes the nation, until it stopped swinging.

Our guest today will help us understand why Ohio may no longer be a swing state, how it happened, what that means, and what the future may look like.

I welcome the former Chair of the Ohio Democratic Party, and now bestselling author of "Laboratories of Autocracy," David Pepper.

And let me just add, it is amazingly candid.

Like you really get...

The names are named, the people are named, the places are named, so it's a very relevant story if you wanna know who's who in Ohio politics.

Welcome.

- Thank you, great to be with you.

- And I do have to say, some of 'em, my eyes were like bulging.

Like, did he really just put that person's name in print?

And yes, you did.

- Yeah.

- There's no guessing.

There's no guessing is it this person or this person?

You left nothing to the imagination, sir.

- Yeah, well, as the book subtitle says, "There's as a wake-up call from behind the lines."

And I wrote it with that purpose and I think being as blunt and direct as possible is needed right now.

The book's broader point is we are in a crisis of democracy and Ohio is a case study.

It's a five alarm fire.

And so, yeah, the book's pretty direct and blunt.

- [Leslie] Yes, it is.

- My hope is people see something they may not have seen before because it's actually something we don't wanna see.

But the truth is I think it describes reality pretty well.

And it shows us how we can do better, but we've gotta come to grips with what's happening before we can do better.

- Before we go to the book, I'd like to start for a moment chronologically, because I'm fascinated with the fact that you were... Not so much that you were raised in Cincinnati, but that your father was CEO of P&G.

- [David] Yeah.

- One of our country's largest companies.

Now, I know that had to be normal for you, but so to ask you what was it like being raised, that's the only thing that you knew, but can you share any perspectives of anything that framed your life or your childhood with the father of one of the largest companies in the country?

- Yeah, you know, what's funny is he was not CEO until I was in college or even after college.

- [Leslie] Okay.

- But I actually, he's led an incredible life.

He started at the bottom of Procter and Gamble.

Didn't know anybody, didn't make any money.

My mom was a legal secretary.

She made more money than he did when they got married.

- [Leslie] Interesting.

- But he worked his way up.

And so, P&G, they hire at the bottom.

You gotta work your way up.

So he did it the right way.

And so he's really a role model, I think, of how you can start with nothing and work your way up.

And he's given back every step of the way.

The one thing I'd say though about that childhood was more than the fact that later on, as I got older, he made it to such a prominent position.

We actually spent a lot of time overseas.

He was put in charge of different parts of international, like Rome and Belgium.

So, I moved around a lot.

And I think in that way, one: it shaped me always knowing that Ohio was home.

So almost because I was elsewhere, I had a great pride in Ohio is my home city and my home state.

But I also think, and you see this in the book and other things I've written, I also think that perspective from another country, it allows me to look back at our own country and our own state in a way that I think too few people do.

Actually also after college, I worked in Russia for several years.

And one of the things I try and bring to this book, and a lot of the other talking I do, is if we were to examine our country and our state with a foreigner's perspective, in many ways we would see our problems more clearly then we do when we're so close to it in Ohio.

So, I think, it gave me a pride in Ohio, but I also think it's given me sort of an ability to look at things that are happening from a perspective with a little more distance, that in some ways can be more clarifying than when we're too close to see some of the deepest problems we have.

- Don't you think also, if you turn that around that we would be so different if everyone had the experience that you had of living outside of this country, that they would then look at their state, their city, their country differently if they had that frame of reference?

- I think so.

I mean, when you travel a lot like I did, and especially if it's part of your childhood, where I spent half my childhood basically in other countries before college.

You, you appreciate where you're from.

So, when you land back in this country after being gone for a year, even when you're in the airport, be it JFK or Cincinnati, there's some amazing feeling about being back in the states.

- [Leslie] Mm hm.

- But as I said, you also kind of have a perspective on how the country is doing in a way that you just lose when you're too close to it.

So, yeah, I think if we were able to examine ourselves with a little more distance, sometimes you just see things you otherwise don't see.

And I think because of that childhood, I've always had the ability to step back a little bit and look at things a little differently, which shapes some of what I write about, even in this book.

- Now, before I get to the book, I wanna ask you a couple questions.

I've always been very impressed with Ivy League educations, presently with some of the senators we have that were Ivy League, Yale and Harvard, I'm a little less impressed.

But what can you tell us, one thing about an Ivy League education?

- I mean, what I'd say is you do, you actually...

The benefit is, and there's good and bad.

I mean, I didn't know anyone when I showed up.

I went to Yale.

You know there's a big Yale connection in Cleveland.

There isn't as much in other parts of Ohio.

I didn't know a soul when I showed up at Yale, but I did quickly get to know people from all over the country, which is really interesting.

That's an education in and of itself, but lemme just say something and this will sound odd coming from somebody who went to one of these schools.

I really worry about what's happening.

That these Ivy League schools are putting sort of a stamp of elite on people who then go out in the world.

And this is gonna sound quite partisan, but when I see people like Josh Hawley, or J.D.

Vance, I mean these Ivy League degrees rocket people up the chain quickly, but to me, they are not a very good... Clearly, they're not a very good sort of filter of character.

And I worry that- - [Leslie] Well, okay, so... Let me ask you.

- I worry that these Ivy League degrees are literally like, they're playing a role they shouldn't.

People need to earn their way up.

And this, I worry as I watch people vault to success because of the degree and those connections.

It's actually becoming more and more dangerous that people are being vaulted ahead as if they're special, when they're not that special.

In some cases, have some real issues that I have a problem with.

So, I actually think these schools, and all of us, they need to take a hard look at how are they teaching ethics and how are they teaching character- - That's just what I was gonna ask you.

Please assure us that they are teaching ethics.

I mean, I know that you- - Not as well as they should be.

I deeply worry that they are launching people forward into this world without enough of a grounding.

And so, we see people outside of a insurrection with their fist raised as a Yale Law graduate.

- [Leslie] Yes, yes.

- If I'm the Dean of Yale Law School, that should really trouble me.

- [Leslie] Yes.

- And I would be thinking, what are we doing wrong that we're giving these people this sort of cloak of elitism and success and character when they actually aren't showing those attributes?

So I actually think these schools have some real work to do because there's this consistent pattern of people being launched from them.

And then doing things that undermine some of the core tenets of our country.

- Before I get to the book, I have two questions I wanna ask you.

You were elected unanimously to Chair the Ohio Democratic Party.

- Yeah.

- In politics, I don't think of anything happening unanimously.

So, how did it happen that you got elected unanimously?

- Well, the truth is, I think in that case once it was pretty clear that I... And this happened sometimes, once it was pretty clear that I had the votes, those who probably were more excited about someone else wanted to be on the side that was gonna win.

But the truth is, when I ran for Chair, I had worked really hard in prior campaigns and as running for Chair to go all around the state and get to know a whole lot of people.

And I think I earned their respect because I'd worked on these campaigns.

So, there was a race there, but I had built up enough sort of interpersonal support that people I think were comfortable with me being in that position.

So, I was proud of that result.

And obviously when you're the Chair of the Ohio party as a Democrat, there are things that you wish you'd won that you didn't, there are successes that we won that I'm proud of.

But yeah, I was honored when I was elected that.

- Can you tell the non-political person and maybe even the political person in a sentence or two, what does the Chair...

I would probably guess of any party, of any state, but what does the Chair, what can you actually do?

- Yeah, that's a great question because I wish it was as powerful as everyone thought it was.

The way I thought about the Chair role in the party role, and this is sort of a 21st century, the old machine party boss stuff needs to go, okay?

That is not a fit for the 21st century.

And if you see that system, it's probably losing elections.

The way I thought about my role is I was in the public service business.

And my role was to find people who wanna be public servants and connect them into jobs where they could do great public service.

And that's the way I could go to work every single day and be energized by what to do in a tough overall political system.

So, every mayor, every council candidate, every state rep up to every Supreme Court Justice, up to Sherrod Brown.

If I could use my skills to connect people, win elections, so they could go do great public service, I was happy.

And that's how I thought about it.

And there's the old model of the old party boss model.

It still exists in some parts of our country, but it needs to be moved into something... People are so down on politics, we need to shape these parties and our approach to politics to be about public service again.

And that's what I try to do as Chair.

- Now, was it harder to herd Democrats or harder to be the father of two boys?

- That's a great question.

They're both fun, but difficult.

- [Leslie] (laughing) Okay.

- I enjoyed my time as Chair.

I love being a dad.

I have an eight and a five-year-old, and that is almost all fun for me.

You know what?

One of the funny things about COVID, as terrible as it's been, and it has been terrible, is parents of young kids like me have spent a lot more time with our kids at this age than probably parents generally do.

- You know, I've said a million times, I truly do believe in COVID and I do believe it's horrible, but I believe that there's some good things that have come out of it also, and that is one of them.

- Yeah, when I started traveling again, even to go up to the Cleveland City Club or something, my kids were like, "Where are you going?

What are you doing?"

Like when they were two and three, I was in Columbus every single day.

That was my job.

But since COVID, you couldn't fly, you stayed at home.

So I do think for small families with young kids like mine, it actually meant a lot more time with dad than typically in the past.

- Now, as a kind of pivot to politics, in light of the last few weeks, and unfortunately even when this airs, I'm sure there'll be some kind of mass shooting that will have taken place.

Do you, with your boys at their age, do you have to have conversations with them about being safe in school?

- You know, I'll be real honest.

We haven't had that yet.

They're maybe a little young for that.

They have had drills.

We did not talk about the Texas shooting with them.

I mean, I guess it's every parent's... My son goes to sleep and I think about this as it happens, and it's just so disturbing.

He heard about the black hole that was discovered a few weeks ago.

He couldn't sleep.

He was thinking about the black hole coming here.

And I worry at this point, that conversation would be actually too much.

But when he was telling me about the black hole, this was only a few days after the shooting in Texas, all I could think about my son was scared of a black hole coming and destroying earth and he couldn't sleep.

And all I could think about is the fear of those kids in that classroom.

And it just, when you're a father of young kids, I think it's so much more real.

I drop 'em off every single day at school.

And so, I have not had that conversation 'cause I honestly, at this point, the school does drills, they know about that.

But the rawness of what happened, I worry would put them into just... Again, a black hole scared them.

Some other goofy thing scares them, that is so overwhelming.

I really worry what that would do at this point.

- If you put your Former Chair of the Democratic Party hat back on, do you have any idea at this time, if this time we will get anything moved on gun control, on gun registration, on gun anything?

From a national perspective, what could you tell us?

- I'm very doubtful that anything meaningful.

I think, now here's the thing that most viewers should understand.

And this goes back to the point of the book.

Common sense gun reform is overwhelmingly popular.

It's not even close.

- [Leslie] Right.

- 80, 90% of voters support almost every type of reform.

The reason it doesn't happen is we have a system that is locking in minority viewpoints.

It's state houses like Ohio's, and with the filibuster in Washington.

So it's a sign of how broken our democracy is.

That politicians are so secure in sort of the system of gerrymandering, in this filibuster, that they can oppose things that 90% of people want and not be held accountable.

So, I think very little will happen.

And I think very little will happen because our political system, especially in states like Ohio, is so broken that even massive popular support for something runs up against a gerrymandered state house and loses.

And it's a crisis in our democracy that we can't do anything about an issue, even as serious, and even with as much overwhelming support as there is for real change.

- Today, we are talking with David Pepper, former Chair of the Ohio Democratic Party and author of the recent book "Laboratories of Autocracy."

So as we turn to "Laboratories of Autocracy," I have to tell you that I had to look up autocracy to make sure I had a working definition.

So please share with us, why this title?

- Well, I wanted to wake people up even with the title.

Usually we think of states and there's been a term around for almost a century that they're laboratories of democracy.

They're the place that we go to get great ideas, to make our democracy stronger.

And I wish that were true right now, but the secret is that states also, as much potential as they had to do good, they also had the potential to undermine our democracy and to create some version of autocracy where you have folks in charge that aren't accountable back to the people.

And I wish this title were just a cute title though, and not reality, but the truth is if you look closely into how our current state... And so, just to be clear, the "Laboratories of Autocracy" in the book, that is referring to state houses.

It's not referring to Mike DeWine.

He has to go through reelection.

It's referring to state houses across this country that are so gerrymandered and so unknown that basically it's a whole world of politics that is totally decoupled from the majority will of the states that they're supposed to represent.

And the book is about how these places have a lot more control over our lives and national democracy than any one realizes.

And until we start to fix that, we'll continue to have situations where we can't pass laws around gun reform that people support, where Roe V. Wade is gotten rid of, even when most people in Ohio don't support that, it's because these state houses have become truly disconnected from the majority will within those states.

And it's very similar by the way, to go back to your question, there's a version of autocracy in this world called competitive autocracy.

And I go through this in the book, it's in Hungary.

It has all the look of a democracy, like an election.

But if the districts are so rigged that the outcome is predetermined by the districts, it's not really a healthy democracy.

That's what we're running into right now in states like Ohio.

The gerrymandering is so extreme.

They sit there, unaccountable in Columbus, passing law after law, and there's nothing anyone back home can do about it because the districts basically predetermine the outcome of it all.

- Now, when you say in your book, "Almost every legislative election in the country is predetermined before it starts."

Are you referring to gerrymandering?

Is that what you're referring to?

- Yeah, I'm referring if you, most states, not all, some states have done reforms and we need to all do them.

One of them, we passed in Ohio, but the current state house is ignoring, but we need to move to a system where there's a lot more competition.

And where the makeup of that state house reflects the people of that state.

There should be somewhere in the mid 40s of a 99 person state house of Democrats in Ohio, in the Ohio state house.

And a whole lot of Republicans and Democrats should only be there because they actually won elections in close districts.

They actually had to earn their victory like most people in life have to earn what they get.

In Ohio, and across this country, they have designed these state house districts so that not only is it not reflective of the people of that state... Wisconsin, for example, has a super majority Republican state house, even though in '18, more Wisconsinites voted for a Democrat than Republican.

But even worse than that, almost every person, for example, in the state of Ohio in the state house, every Republican has almost never been in an election in their entire career.

They've always been in districts they could not lose.

And that is creating a downward spiral when it comes to corruption and outcomes and extremism, 'cause they never feel any accountability back to the people.

- [Leslie] Now, is... - And that's the case in far too many states.

- Is gerrymandering a reason or the reason, perhaps there's more than one reason, but is that a reason why we look at a county that went for Obama and then Trump?

Is it gerrymandering or is that too simple an answer?

- No, not really.

I mean, there are other dynamics in politics.

And certainly there are some counties that used to be more Democratic and voted Republican.

And just like there are a lot of suburban areas that used to be Republican, now voting for Democrats.

So, that's a different shift.

But what I'd say is the lack of competition in dozens of districts in a state like Ohio, does foment extremism.

If you have one politician and they know that their entire time in office there will never be a credible challenger to their power, they can get away with being more and more extreme.

So it doesn't really explain Obama, Trump or vice versa, but it does explain why this state house feels a lot more extreme now than it did 10 years ago.

You're literally dealing with a whole lot of legislators who've never really been in an election where they thought they were gonna lose.

And that is breeding a far right lurch that no one really can stop.

And until we bring accountability and real competition back to politics at the state house level, I'm afraid that downward spiral that we're all watching in horror will continue.

- Now in your book, first, you sounded the alarm, and then you outlined 30 steps that people can take.

So let's just look at a couple of them in the remaining minutes that we have.

What do you mean by "Reframe the battle, fulfilling a constitutional guarantee?"

When how well do you think the average American knows the constitution?

- Yeah.

So, the constitutional guarantee is that we actually have democracy in states.

And this is the advice I'm providing, especially to leaders in the US Senate and others, that when you take an oath to the constitution of this country, you are taking an oath to uphold democratic governance, small d, in every state in this country.

And they need to take that part of their oath much more seriously than they do.

Okay?

But my advice to everyone else is whether or not you think about it as part of the constitution, every single citizen in this country has a right that their state is a democracy, small d. And we need to all approach politics with that in mind, because once you stop having certain states be sort of small d democratically governed, you get the kind of extremism we're seeing.

So I think that there needs to be a commitment, not just typical red and blue, Republican, Democrat.

This is bigger than that.

This is about democracy itself.

And when you lose small d democracy in states like Ohio, the consequences really spiral.

So that's what I'd say.

And my hope is once people understand that just like other countries, we are in a battle for democracy itself.

A lot of other things become very clear about what you should be doing and not doing as part of that battle.

But that initial adjustment is critical.

- Let me ask you, a question as a communication coach, I will ask clients, "While standing on one foot," so think that you're standing on one foot, "What would you want an Ohio resident to know or do as a result of reading your book?"

- Great question.

Know who their state rep is.

- Okay.

- State representative and state Senator.

Is that person fighting for democracy or are they not?

If they are, wonderful, help them to get back there.

If they're not, make sure someone's running against them.

That's number one.

- [Leslie] Okay.

- Number two: go help lift democracy in other ways.

If you're on the board of a homeless shelter or food bank, or you're a resident of an apartment, are you helping people who you serve or that come through those doors, register?

If you're not, you should be.

There are being millions of people purged from the roles by Frank LaRose all the time over the years, and Jon Husted.

We need them back on the roles.

So there's a role you can all play in lifting democracy way beyond what you might imagine you can play right now.

- Let me ask you two quick questions in the remaining time that we have.

Is Ohio still a swing state, yes or no?

- I believe it is at the highest level.

I think it is a swing state perhaps for Tim Ryan's race in particular.

I think a good candidate can still win like Sherrod Brown did in '18.

- If you were traveling outside of Ohio, what would you tell someone about Ohio who has never been here in a word or two?

- Wonderful state, terribly governed.

(Leslie laughing) - Who inspires you?

- My family, you mentioned my dad, my mother and father have spent their entire life trying to lift this community where I live.

So I think they've been role models since I was born.

- And you get one name, Democratic candidate for president in 2024.

- Joe Biden.

All this talk that there's gonna be another candidate I think is not accurate and undermines the current President.

So, Joe Biden running for reelection is my candidate.

- Okay.

We thank our guest today, David Pepper, author of "Laboratories of Autocracy" for joining us on Forum 360.

We wish him well as author, as insider, and as dad.

A famous author, when asked if writing was hard, answered, "Oh no, you just cut your wrist, lean over your typewriter and bleed."

We thank our guest today for bleeding so that we can better understand politics at the local, the state and the national levels.

If you remember one thing from his book or our conversation today, perhaps it will be that every person has a toolkit at their disposal; your voice, your network, your passion, and your dollars.

I'm Leslie Ungar.

Thank you for joining us today on Forum 360 for your Global Outlook with a Local View.

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